Comments on: Raising the Bar on Education part: 3

By: Brook

Brook — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 05:17:15 +0000

Mike, I appreciate your post. I agree with you on the fact that public schools are at the behest of the powers that be and hence they give a watered down version of historical and political issues. There are other fundamental flaws with public schooling. But I am one who is hesitant to support such a dramatic change towards vouchers because as much education as I get on the subject, I am still stepping into the unknown.
I am curious to know what you think about vouchers. Would it be the responsibility of the local state or federal government?
Do you see vouchers working in the inner city? I believe Romney has spoken about cleaning up the education problems in the inner cities, are vouchers part of his plan?
Is there momentum behind the movement. I am from Utah (maybe the most conservative state) and the voucher referendum lost by about a margin of 60 to 40.
I know that from the standpoint of market place economics competition is healthy. But, I think of the money schools would use that would go into advertising to get more students in place of being invested in the students they already have. Is there a way around this?
Mike, this has been a very good mental exercise for me. I do appreciate your comments and explanations. I wish you the best with your children’s education. It is very much a concern for me with my children as well.

By: Mike Laub

Mike Laub — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 04:10:22 +0000

You have been very nice, and kind to me, and I have been very committed to arguing for my side. Thanks for being so nice, and explaining yourself so well.

I think you are right, that in rural places it doesn’t make a lot of sense. I had a very bad time in public schools, and I have read some books “De-schooling society by Ivan Illitch” and I am very committed to school reform, and so I don’t know if we have the capacity to resolve the issue here …

But you make some very good points, and I think that Mitt Romney would be able to look at both sides, and advance ideas that work.

I think you make a great point about the grass always being greener on the other side… I had a very negative experience in public school, and so I may be making my decision based on emotion…

I have also never thought about the damage of multiple changes in the school that you go to. I don’t mean to sound naive… I know it is not always true… but freedom can be scary, and bad things can happen, but I think you have to try to let people make bad decisioins… I know this is not the end of the argument… I’m not one of those people that finds principals, and ignores all other principals…. I know you could take my logic to the extreme… “Mike, if you want to trust people to run their own lives, why don’t we legalize prostitution, and drugs?”… And you would be right… But, to be honest with you, I want to trust parents to choose their kids schools, and I also would like to legalize marijuana… I’m LDS, and have never smoked a cigarette, or marijuana, but I’m kind of a liberatarian… I’m not saying I’m right, and your wrong, but that is just who I am, and what I think…

Again, you make some good points about changing schools, and the rural situation, and I don’t think it will be an option everywhere, but I live in Chicago, and their are many Catholic schools, and I think it would be great to send my kid to them.

I’m not worried about Nazi schools. I don’t really think this is an issue. I don’t think their are any white supremacist places that are trying to run schools, and if they did, they would be run out of town, and it is better to have these guys out in the open, trying to start schools, than just teaching stuff in their homes… I am concerned about all the muslin schools, that seem to teach so much hatred against the west. But I would rather embrace the free market of ideas, than shove the vinilla, white-washed, non offensive, politically correct version of history down kid’s throats… I think we are taking a break from history, with schools that pretend to not teach anything… these schools don’t try to advance any world view… they try to stay neutral, and I think they have neutered our ability to define America, what we are, and what makes us unique… and that has been our embracing of a messy, chaotic, marketplace of ideas… and I want schools to embrace that…

I think we can pretty much shame schools that teach hatred. Newspapers, and journalist will expose what is going on.

I think it would be pretty easy to have standards in order to get vouchers… I think the vast majority of charter schools, and catholic schools, and baptist schools would meet these standards…

Again, thanks so much for your comments, and being such a great sport… I know I can be very opinionated… that is why my family doesn’t like to talk to me about politics… and I’m sorry I am imposing myself on all of you

By: Brook

Brook — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:53:26 +0000

Mike Thanks for your post.
The constituents of my state just voted down school vouchers. That is why this issue is fresh in my mind. Let me give you some more context for my decision to vote against the vouchers. I teach in a rural school district on a reservation. I love the people I teach. My student’s parent’s schooling opportunities have been very limited. The parents are not acquainted with school as an institution like a middle class white person would be. Having a parent who understands the ins and outs of the culture of government and school is really quite an advantage to students. Many studies have reported that the mothers and fathers education is one of the most significant factors of academic achievement; partly because they pass on their knowledge, but also partly because they know how to get what their child needs. I feel educational equity is what we need to strive for. I feel that taking resources from public education and putting it into the hands of parents will be beneficial to many of the middle class students. I think the kids at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder will be the last to benefit from this program. I do not want to confuse my position of support for public schools as a pro welfare kind of stance. I do not believe in the government dole. In this sense I am a true conservative. But I do believe that there are some common or community goods that are packaged for us by the government that need to stay community goods. Transportation, Criminal Justice and of course education.
Here is another hypothetical situation that would fit our rural community. What if nobody builds a private school out here. Then do our students really have a choice, like so many other students do?
The theme of this post so far has been equity. I wish to add another thought related to the consequence of voucher funded schooling. I agree with your premise that People will choose what is best for them. But sometimes we change our minds and instead of sticking with our initial choice we go to a new choice. I think there are parents out there who always think the grass is greener at another school. I am afraid unlimited choice would allow those kinds of parents to transfer their child as soon as they could find something to complain about. Studies have shown that the number of moves a child makes has a very detrimental effect on that child’s achievement. I know many people who grew up in the armed forces and were forced to move. They all agree that it was difficult on them to relocate. From the perspective of a teacher things become terribly complicated when students transfer frequently. I have had to accept students in Geometry class in the 3rd quarter of the year who did not take geometry at their other school the first two quarters. They were working at an extreme disadvantage because they did not have the prior knowledge they needed to succeed.
My last arguement against vouchers is that the government would not have control of the schools that it is funding through vouchers. I don’t want a group of crazy people founding a school based on neo nazi doctrine, or even radical islam doctrine, and receiving government funding for that school. As it stands each state has curriculum standards that public school are responsible to teach. Private schools can teach what they want. This can be very good. I once taught at a Catholic school. I think the prayers and the sense of spiritual community was very positive. Or this can be very bad if the standards of the school are based on a doctrine of violence or hate.
Mike, I look forward to your response.

By: Mike Laub

Mike Laub — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:57:10 +0000

Brook. Thank you very much for your participation. I do want to hear other people’s opinions, but not so that we can compromise, but so that I can use your arguments to make my arguments better.

I should never call anyone one a liberal. I don’t even know myself well enough, let alone someone whom I meet from reading a paragraph of what they think about education. I’m glad you gave me reasons to disagree, and I hope you don’t mind that I tried to make arguments against those reasons.

I wanted to hear from the other side, but I really do believe in my side.

I know that I am not doing you fairly, if I miss-represented or over simplified what you were trying to say. But I think you made some good points. Perhaps school assignment based on geographic location might create a sense of community… I think this is sort of a central planning, “we know best how to run your life mentality”, but I think that by me re-stating your point, some people will agree with you instead of me.

I hope you did not interpret that as me calling you “a liberal”. There are times when we should promote community spirit. I think we should balance that with parental choice. Me saying that one perspective is valued more by liberals shouldn’t surprise anyone.

By: Brook

Brook — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 04:16:15 +0000

I was shocked to notice that my post meritted so much attention. I was also shocked to find out that I was a liberal. I really think your best defense may be a strong offense. Instead of breaking my post apart piece by piece, I suggest you find ways to articulate the strength of your argument in a productive way. Then the rest of the viewers will make more sense of what your point is. I noticed that your blog was posted on another website without any comments. I am quite sure your rebuttals would be misunderstood by those who previously did not read my post and not necessarily to the benefit of your arguement. I am grateful for an open forum in which to share ideas. I appreciate you for having the courage and the desire to share your ideas. I was asked to share my thoughts on the topic and did so as best I knew how in the hope that I could bring my experience to the table. I do think that the respect of differing opinions can only strengthen our resolve to go forward in the right direction. I look to Mitt Romney as a prime example of someone who considers many differing view points before ultimately making a decision.

By: goverment schools 4 all

goverment schools 4 all — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 19:17:38 +0000

Sarah, in California there is a charter school that pays you $70 per kid monthly to get any private lessons, they provide you with all curriculum (you choose as long as its godless, no Bible for example, but you can get the Koran I think) and they give you supplies. They also provided one optional full day of school a week so the kids’ real teacher (you) could prepare weekly lessons. You go in once a month to have a credentialed counselor review your efforts and offer any help or to change out your curriculum, it is entirely parent driven. It is a great setup, so anyone can afford homeschooling, however there were CONSTANT efforts by the union to shut the school down. The charter school got the $7000 or so that would’ve gone to the local public school for your child whether they attend or not, then they kick back about half or so to you and kept the other half for improving facilities or profit. Coming from that environment my kids are now at the top of their class in a rigorous private school. No government school can compete with a 1 on 1 student teacher ratio and a teacher who cares more than any paid government teacher ever will. The government schools and associated union are in a total money and power grab, and they have little or nothing to show for the zillions that taxpayers dole out to them. They hold our kids hostage insisting they need more money and making it every more difficult for parents to educate the children elsewhere. I wonder what will happen to that awesome little charter school in CA now that a judge decided to put homeschooling moms and dads in jail.

By: Brook

Brook — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 03:34:45 +0000

Your first assertion that competition among different educational institutions is healthy because produces a better product is oversimiplified. Here are a few questions that I think should be considered before promoting such an educational policy.
First, how equitable would it be for governments to endorse a voucher system that supports school choice. I believe upper middle class parents would jump at the opportunity because the cost of doing so would be minimal in relation to the advantage their child would reap. A family that doesn’t make as much can not afford the hidden costs of sending their child to a better school such as transportation. I also think that by nature we want what is best for our children, and so often we think that we need to have better for our children than for other children. People will perceive this kind of policy as a go ahead to form elitist schools. In the south private schooling became very popular as a means of ensuring that white children would not have to be schooled with black children after the desegregation laws.
Second, What kind of impact does it have on the cohesion of the community?Our country has always prided itself on having tight strong knit socially cohesive communities. In my opinion this kind of community is very healthy for the people. The community in the past has been defined by geographic regions such as a neighborhood, town, or village. It has been customary for people of communities to worship together, celebrate together, in many cases work together and go to school together. Yet now days people do not do many of these things within the confines of the community. There has been a break down in social capital. The one thing left that binds the citizens of a geographic community is the public schools.
Third, how practical is this? I know for a fact that Mitt Romney is not a fan of bigger government. Would there need to be some sort of accountability factor for all schools. If so what government entity would hold the private and other forms of schooling accountable? Would they receive a report card? A school report card would be necessary for parents to make an informed decision.
Your second assertion that there is no incentive for teachers to do well in a publice education setting is unfounded. The NCLB act has put immense pressure on schools to perform at higher level. Teachers are afforded bonuses for increasing student test scores. Districts are rewarded for improving scores, and punished when scores do not improve. I have been a teacher prior to and after NCLB. The amount of pressure to perform, and the level of quality teacher training have increased dramatically since the NCLB legislation.
I am a huge fan of Mitt Romney. I believe in market place economics in many other areas. Public education is my one exception. Public education breaks down class and race emnity. Public education builds community. I am proud to be a public educator. I do perceive private and home schooling as the right of parents. But please don’t use my tax money to fund it.

By: Sarah

Sarah — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 23:04:27 +0000

I agree. I am happy to be a graduate of the Public School system and to now attend a small Private University where I get the best, not the easiest yet hey thats college, education and where my beliefs and standards are held. When I was a sophmore in High School and was attending summer school to get my history class out of the way my History teacher asked was talking about history and trying to relate it to today. Then she asked how many of us where democrats, and not that many people raised their hands (now remember this is summer school with about three different schools in attendance) and when she asked how many where Republicans I saw many hands go up including mine. I then had the perfect satifaction when I saw her face turn from “I got them now” probably thinking we didn’t know politics or cared to “oh no I probably should change the subject” and I must admitt it was very funny to watch. Yet I didn’t laugh.

That is just one example of a Histroy teacher trying to tell us her views and thinking just because she is a teacher she could get away with it. I shudder to think what would have happened if not that many people raised thier hands stating they where Republicans. I might have had to walk out of the classroom.

Private education and Homeschooling seems the best choice, but what do you do when you can’t afford either? And that is the problem we are facing especially in our large cities and in Liberal states like California and Massachusetts.

By: goverment schools 4 all

goverment schools 4 all — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:47:28 +0000

I homeschooled my 7 children in California. I moved out of state when I finally found an excellent PRIVATE school for them. Apparently I would be arrested in California now for homeschooling since I do not have a California teacher’s credential. We’ll that’s just sweet. The government schools are REALLY low quality and teach subjects in ways unacceptable to me. But there is definitely a push to kill off homeschooling, the only viable alternative to private schools for people that can’t afford funding both the government schools and a private school. I am finding a lot of things unacceptable this election cycle, the candidates we are forced to choose from for president, as well as the relentless drumbeat of the government reaching for the brains and souls of my kids….

By: bethtopaz

bethtopaz — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:54:01 +0000

What’s to disagree with?

Mr. Combes - thank you for your service as a teacher. As someone who grew up in the 50s and 60s, when there were still standards and teachers still expected students to try and learn and excel and Respect their elders, I do agree with you.

If you disagree with this blogger or Mr. Combes, just go into any DMV and you will see what government control does to quality and motivation to excel and offer the best customer service.

If you don’t like it, they very well might look you in the eye, laugh and say, “Where else are you going to go? The DMV down the street?”

Competition is healthy and results in the highest quality of goods and services.

American society is suffering because of the liberals insane desire to create Marxist-type equality.

By: Peter Combes

Peter Combes — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 12:58:47 +0000

When I finished my undergraduate Education degree in the 60’s I had just finished my Internship and was confused. High School was different than it had been when I was a student just four years ago. So, I went on to get my M.Ed. and that was when I decided I didn’t want to go into public education.

I realized in Graduate School that it was not about the kids and teaching. It was about the administration, the educators, the power. Sure there were thousands who wanted to be teachers, but they would have to buck the system and follow the rules if they wanted to work with kids.

The old teachers who did it for what they could give to kids aged out. The really good ones battled the system or as much as possible ignored it, and were so driven, the system couldn’t completely control them. And, mostly, now we finally have a system that has control of the teachers and control of the students and to a degree control of our future. As the seed grows, so grows the tree.

Teach them popular culture and they will learn it. Teach them political correctness and they will learn it. Teach them a Political agenda in the name of “global warming” and they will learn it.

The ones who escape will be the exceptionals, the home schoolers and the private school kids. The masses have been, are being, and will be adversely affected and it is getting exponentially worse as time goes by. It doesn’t need to be adjusted, it needs to be knocked down and rebuilt. And, it needs to be built by teachers and parents, not educators, bureaucrats and politicians.

Now, do I erase this and throw it away as more rambling of an older non-teacher or post it for others to wonder if I’m nuts or not? And, does it really matter? Here goes. - P